Chasing the Wind

6 responses to “If I Had a Nickel for Every Time…”

1. 

   Keith Prossick

   May 22, 2006 at 2:57 pm

   Well, being that the words “In God We Trust…” were not there from the beginning, but added during the Civil War Era, I am all for a return to original intent.

   T. Roosevelt proposed to remove it, believe it or not, more for religious reasons other then secular. He felt they were “dangerously close to sacrilege.”

   The phrase began to appear during Salmon Chase’s tenure as treasury secretary.

   T. Roosevelt, ” But it seems to me emminently unwise to cheapen it by use on postage stamps, or in advertisements.”

   I believe that, plus also acknowledge the risk of alienating those citizens that feel that it is a direct reference to a Christian God, and place there for Christian reasons.

   This is a secular country, it was not founded on any one religion. Our founding fathers new full well the dangers of allowing religion into the governement office. It does not mean they have no right to exist, but have to acknowledge the right of other faiths to exist.

   “In God We Trust…” on the dollar, and “Under God” in the pledge, which also was added, and not original, are blatant attempts for religion to wedge its way into governement, and must be removed.

   To assume that this is a Christian Nation founded on Christian ideals shows a clear and present danger to the well being of this Union.

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2. 

   Michael

   May 22, 2006 at 4:21 pm

   So the motto has only been on coins for 142 years. It’s on there via an Act of Congress, and only an Act of Congress should take it off. It’s not up to a local school board to decide which U.S. laws and acts are applicable.

   Declaring the U.S. a secular nation is a rumor atheists and secularist have been trying to spread for the last few years. From the Declaration of Independence to the Congressional Oath of Office, God has frequently been mentioned in official US documents. It’s only been in the last 30 years or so that secularists have been attempting to remove references to God from the U.S. Government. Historical revisionism doesn’t work, too many documents to the contrary.

   Article II of the US Constitution was to prohibit the US Government from infringing on the rights of citizens to worship as they please as the history of settlers to America were often persecuted because of their religion elsewhere. There is no indication from the Founding Fathers that the reverse was a concern, that US citizens, once elected to office, should not be allowed to practice their religion. The US was founded on Judeo-Christian ideals, and a more accurate description would be a Theist or Deist nation, but not secularists.

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3. 

   Keith Prossick

   May 22, 2006 at 8:28 pm

   It is not in revisionist history that we look to, but the very words of our founding fathers. In their correspondence, legislature, and speeches we find their wisdom. Did the not believe in God, not at all. We do not deprive them of that. But they were wise beyong their age to know that man, under the guise of religion, of any faith, can be easily be swayed by literalists into quickly revising legislation to suit their own Domionistic tendencies.

   In the treaty to Tripoli, ratified by Congress as well, and signed by John Adams, states clearly that America is not founded as a Christian Nation.

   The Founding Father’s were full aware, from repeated histories, that any religion, when it begins to seep into government, begins to assert their own ideals, over the ideals and freedoms of those that has differing spiritual views.

   You would think that the Christians that came over from Europe would remember the trials and tribulations they endured there, but finding themselves free to do as they will, they quickly began asserting their own religious views upon the law. Most Christian towns in the Northeast, particualrly, Puritan, were quick to banish non believers from their cities. John Winthrop is an example, especially the Anne Hutchinson ordeal.

   Yes, many of our founding father’s were deist, of which I associate with. However, that is entirely different then Christianity. My fear is with the Christian groups of today that claim dominion over this land, and speak of our founding father’s word as referring to them. They were as clear as possible, know that America would be a pluraistic state where people of many faiths would have to live together. The only way to enforce those Freedom’s is to make sure that NO faith has the upper hand over any other. And also, making sure that the governement cannot restrict or prohibit faiths from their own worship.

   “Believing with you in that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of governement reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of seperation between Church and State.”

   -Jefferson’s reply to the Banbury Baptist Association of Connecticut, October 7, 1801 that attempted to sway Jefferson to adhere to a Christian ideal.

   The Law of the Land was thus removed from the hands of the Church, but the governement was not allowed to persecute ANY faith, but to offer it the gift of Freedom for them to exist in their own Nature.

   Chruch and State are like to little children that haven’t learned responsibility and how to get along. Each side tries to one up the other, get a strangle hold on the other, and kick dirt in the face of the other. Until the Church, displays responsibility for their Freedoms, they will have to remain on the outside before they should be allowed a direct say in governement. This will not happen in our life times. Our freedoms are at stake.

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4. 

   Michael

   May 23, 2006 at 12:10 pm

   You’re arguing against a straw man. I never said the US was founded as a Christian nation. We are not and have never been a theocracy. I said it was founded on Judeo-Christian principles by theists and deists. Your understanding of the Founding Fathers is incomplete and biased, but it was not religion into government they were concerned about, but government into religion. You’ve selectively quoted Jefferson private letter, but ignored thousands of other official references including the Declaration of Independence.

   In light of the Founding Father’s beliefs, “In God We Trust” was considered in keeping with the belief of most Americans. It still is.

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5. 

   Keith Prossick

   May 23, 2006 at 2:30 pm

   In correction, we are both biased. That’s a given, and cannot be helped.

   As for the Declaration, Jefferson was very clear to illustrate God as Nature’s God. And The term Creator a reference to that God.

   Michael, my point is that you will view the founding father’s intent based upon the fact that the governement cannot interfere with religion, the other side will think in reverse. Both, because that is the way you each interpret it. However, the intent was that because both sides felt the same way about the other, a mechanism needed to be formed to allow each side it’s own freedom, but also so that freedom did not interfere with the other. To be one sided on this issue illustrates why it needed to be done, that is a separation of Church and State. There is too much history in our past as humans where one dominated the other, even in our own colonial days.

   I used the letter as an example, but I could also quote you the Treaty of Tripoli, or Jefferson’s Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, and others, but that would take up a lot of space.

   Please do not think I am against you practicing your faith, the issue comes when laws based upon that faith cross lines with laws based on specific civil freedoms. When Biblical Law begins imposing its will on Secular Law. When this issue is raised, it is my belief that freedom of will must be maintained, even if I am opposed to it. Morality, after all, is not black and white.

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6. 

   Michael

   May 23, 2006 at 4:22 pm

   Your point seems to be that the Act of Congress that established “In God We Trust” may be freely disregarded because of various opinions regarding religious freedom, as though 142 years after the fact you’ve suddenly realized Congress was in error.

   If your opinion was shared by a majority of Americans, in should be no trouble to rescind that Act of Congress. In the meantime, protesting against arbitrary restrictions on any mention of God in defiance of Congressional Acts is something I will continue to speak out against.

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